Jedi Knights and the Force

[Iaera]

So, there's been a lot of talk of Jedi this and Jedi that lately. What constitutes a "traditional" Jedi versus a "grey" Jedi, power and Force escalation among the community (from Alma's thread), and so on. I'd like to use this thread to discuss some of these issues, with the goal of aiding communication among the Jedi sub-community and perhaps providing some basis for IC discussions of these same issues (as I'm sure the Jedi are not a monolithic organisation, and likely have disagreements among very similar lines!).

A little back-story; one of my earliest memories is watching Empire Strikes Back on TV, circa 1990 or so, so it's fair to say I've been a Star Wars fan my whole life. I had an adolescent infatuation with the EU novels (of varying and sometimes dubious quality) and read almost every single published title (with a few exceptions) up through the end of the Yuuzhan Vong / New Jedi Order arc. I like the prequel trilogy just as much as the original trilogy (Deal With It  8)). One of my favourite parts of Star Wars has always been the Jedi Knights, the ascetic warrior-monks who use ancient, mystic power to defend and protect the galaxy. All of this is to say that I have spent a fair amount of time, probably more than is strictly healthy for a well-balanced member of society, thinking and pondering about the Jedi and the Force.

I have alluded to some of these thoughts with Iaera's own IC ruminations, and Iaera's thoughts are unsurprisingly similar to my own. First, though, I want to discuss a more salient topic: Grey Jedi vs Traditional Jedi. We had a little bit of discussion on it in the other threads, but I want to tackle it head on here. To do that we need to define what a Grey Jedi is and what a Traditional Jedi is.

I think it's popularly taken for granted that Traditional Jedi are rigid adherents to the various incarnations of the Jedi Code that show up in the canon, and are generally seen as inflexible, draconian, and even reactionary. I want to try to dispel that perception, though, and I know that many of us who do play "traditional" characters have been trying to do just that. Certainly, there are plenty of individual examples of stubborn and overly-conservative Jedi, but somehow they've given the entire Jedi Order a bad reputation.

Let's talk about the movies: there's no higher form of what is and is not Star Warsy (except Han, of course; we all know he shot first!). Of the major Jedi characters, only Mace Windu stands out as being particularly conservative and conforming to this notion of a rigidly draconian Jedi Order. He was a jerk to Anakin on repeated occasions and probably exemplified the idea that the Jedi had grown too set in their ways and bound to ritual and tradition. The only other notable Jedi who shares this attitude, though, is arguably the librarian in Attack of the Clones: "If it isn't in our archives, it doesn't exist!"

Every other significant Jedi (not including Anakin for obvious reasons) either doesn't express very strong views at all, or expresses very moderate or progressive views. Yoda, of course, is widely regarded as the wisest of the Jedi, and frequently forecasts warnings and bad omens, but he never really takes a hard-line stance on anything. Ki-Adi-Mundi is pretty chill, and according to Wookieepedia, he's married! Married! Obi-Wan is a wisecracking goofball outside of official Serious Buiness (a trait I try to emulate with Iaera). And Qui-Gon of course is notoriously rebellious and free-thinking, and probably serves as the primary inspiration for the Gray Jedi archetype.

With the arguable exception of Qui-Gon, those are all card-carrying Jedi Knights. Watching them throughout the prequels, I just can't fathom the idea of a Jedi Order that's so strict and draconian as to produce nothing but the most rigid automatons of Jedi.

TL;DR - Traditional Jedi are a bit more flexible than popular belief holds. They can goof off, drink (as Obi-Wan does in Attack of the Clones), laugh, and generally be human beings (or aliens, as the case may be). The trick is to do so in moderation. Iaera drinks, but never gets drunk. She goofs off, but never makes an ass of herself. She laughs, but refrains from a vulgar stand-up routine. So what is a traditional Jedi if not an emotionless robot?

A Traditional Jedi follows the spirit, if not necessarily the letter, of the Jedi Code; performs missions and tasks as assigned by the Jedi Council; and while the Jedi may dissent with the Council and the Order on individual matters, the Jedi, in general, accepts and adheres to the organisation of the Jedi Order.

A Grey Jedi, then, is a Jedi who does not necessarily do those things. They reject parts or all of the Jedi Code; ignore or rebel against the Jedi Council; and do not accept the established organisation of the Jedi Order.

I think those are fair-to-decent definitions, at least for the purposes of argument. Agree? Disagree? Thoughts? Opinions from all are welcome, Jedi or non-Jedi.

[Nascuyan]

Ki-Adi-Mundi is pretty chill, and according to Wookieepedia, he's married! Married!

I believe it's because he belongs to a dying race and the council approved it because they saw it as his duty to attempt to repopulate his race. I'm not sure about any of that but it's what I've seen. It still lends itself as an example to your point though.

[Iaera]

Another thing I wanted to discuss, since it's come up a couple of times in-game now - Force sight. Not only the Miraluka version, but in general as well. This is something that I'm sure there are a wide variety of opinions on, and there's been a few OOC spats over what someone can and cannot see with the Force recently, so let's talk about it.

First and foremost, let's look at what limited information we can get from the movies. In A New Hope, Obi-wan makes Luke train with a solid visor blocking his vision. He catches on pretty quickly and exclaims "I really could see the remote!". This suggests at least some ability to perceive one's environment without using one's eyes, even with minimal training. Of course, it's not really clear just how much Luke could and couldn't see, but it's a place to start. This is corroborated by a similar scene in Attack of the Clones, where the younglings are seen training with remotes under similar conditions.

The Force and its effects are usually defined in vague, ambiguous terms. Obi-wan said, "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded," as opposed to "You can totally make someone repeat words back to you verbatim with the Force, duder." I think this is the approach to take with all things Force, so, having a general, nebulous sense of one's surroundings is a good way to RP something like Force sight, rather than "I literally see things as if with real eyes."

There's also the game mechanic - Miralukas get that Force alignment see-er-thingy. I'm of the mind, however, that game mechanics aren't much better than garbage when it comes to RP. Taking the Miraluka ability as literal fact would imply that non-Miralukas don't have that ability, and all Miralukas do. This is blatantly not the case, since the Jedi of the prequel trilogy routinely senses the Dark Side in this or that. Luke senses "cold" from the Dark Side cave on Dagobah, and "good" in Vader. None of them are Miraluka! And again, I think it's best not to take such things too literally anyway, but it should rather be treated in vague, ambiguous terms. Seeing a red aura around someone oughtn't automatically translate to "You're an evil bad person!" but rather, "The Dark Side of the Force surrounds you," which could mean any number of things.

These are my own thoughts and opinions on the matter, however, and I'd like to hear how others treat Force sight.

[Sciran]

I am really eager to see how this thread develops, as I am one of those who has enjoyed discussion and debate on the Jedi teachings/abilities/philosophies since my introduction to Star Wars in '92. I intend to contribute a much longer post of my thoughts on the morrow, but I wanted to point out a small note regarding Jedi Rigidness.

I agree with Iaera in almost all respects that Jedi as individuals should be more flexible with themselves and still be considered 'Traditional'. Obi-Wan I think is a perfect example of that... He might serve as comic relief from time to time and indulge in emotional pursuits, but he tries very much to adhere to what he believes to be the Order's purpose/vision.

However, in the time difference between the movies and the game, we do see some examples of the Order itself being VERY strict on certain topics. The best example I have offhand (because I played it most recently) is the Jedi Order's stance on relationships.
I've seen it posted that many believe that Jedi should be allowed in relationships, and while my character disagrees, I am one who also believes this. Yet, in a questline on Tython, you spy on two padawans in love. The Master asking you to do this specifically says "They must renounce their love and remain apart, or the will never be Jedi." - implying that the Order will not accept them if they are in a relationship. The other Master talking with this one agrees on that subject.
Now, it is possible to say that this was simply the belief of two masters, and does not reflect the opinion of the Order as a whole... But if you pursue a romance with Kira on a male Jedi Knight the mentality is confirmed again: Kira tells you that the only way that two Jedi can be married is if both were born into the Jedi, are approved by the Council, can ONLY see one another on Tython, only under supervision - and here's the kicker - only once per year. Considering that Kira is actually wanting to marry your character in this plot decision, I doubt we can say this is "Just her opinion" but is an actual result of her digging.

Now, myself, I take this to mean that a Jedi can believe what he wishes about the matter - but is required to ACT on the Order's wishes regarding it in order to remain with the Order, at least in this time period.

Now, to clarify - THIS IS NOT A RAG ON THOSE WHO WISH TO PLAY JEDI IN RELATIONSHIPS. Sciran the character rags on them, due to his experiences. I'm not here to. This was simply the only example I had on the Order being extremely rigid on a topic at hand.

While I have enjoyed debating Jedi since way too long ago, I admit there are those who know more than I on the matter. Iaera, I feel you are one of those. So I'm bringing this to you as a question: How do you see that we react to this? When something -is- presented as rigid, but that we wish to RP apart from? When the game establishes something, there will be those who wish to follow it. (Another second thought example: the fact that Satele Shan is the Grand Master. There are some who like to RP that she isn't)

Reworded: How do you see a Jedi RP one thing as true, meeting another Jedi who's RPing that it is not true, interacting? I ask because this is an issue that ripples beyond Jedi players, but -affects- them the most.

P.S. It's possible that I'm rambling at this point, and am gonna cut it here. It's late, I'm tired, and I ramble.
Usual disclaimer - this is an opinion post, and inquisitive one, and is NOT something I'm trying to enforce. Because sometimes people seem to think I am.

[Alduana]

It is pretty darn late here, but I quickly wanted to throw in my own two creds on the matter at hand, as a player of one of the recently dubbed "Traditional" Jedi. Also I apologize if this makes no sense, and rambles. I am admittedly rather tired. Also this was written before Sciran's post so sorry if I run over old ground again

A little preamble to show where I am coming from on this. I have loved SW since I was a little girl but was often discouraged from getting into it as it was "Boy things". Though I hung on to my fandom It is only in recent years I have let my inner SW geek run free in the meadows of EU and the interesting changes to canon brought on by the Prequels.  That said I have been devouring any book put in front of me. Including, pertaining to this topic, the recent Jedi Path book and Book of the Sith.

I honestly agree with Iaera on pretty much all she said above.  However I feel that the term 'Grey Jedi' is misleading. Generally speaking while a Grey Jedi does stand on the edge of things, the term is used more often to refer to ones standing within the force, and general view on the Force as a whole, not  just on the council. I think we would be better off just going with the term 'non-traditional' as normally the term Grey Jedi is reffering to neutral Jedi in the light to dark progression.

I also agree that Moderation is the name of the game. Jedi are people too and will have their foibles and flaws, but generally 'traditional' Jedi tend to not go to extremes.

In the case of Role Playing I think that we have to take into account the climate of the Jedi in the current game time line as well when defining if our character fits traditional or non or even beyond that. It is well and good to talk about Mace, Anakin, and Yoda, however this game we all enjoy is set Long long ago (In a galaxy... well the same one actually) and if we are going to define traditional Jedi we should use the current timeline to support those and use later timeline information as additional sources. The exact form of what is a Jedi has changed a bit here and there over the years, never straying too far from those core beliefs but which ones are more important wax and wane. The attitude of the Jedi towards the world in general would be different in the current game climate of almost impending war with the Sith than it would for say the beginning of the Clone Wars If by nothing else than there are other masters currently in charge, and thus their stances on things may be slightly different. This is getting more nit-picky and rambly, I know.  I felt that this point needed to be added when we consider the idea of a traditional Jedi as a whole.
TL:DR The era will actually define a bit about the Jedi and may influence what would be considered Traditional or not for the character themselves.

One other point I wanted to quickly make is one that I think we have sort of been moving around but not addressing, which is the point when a Jedi is no longer  a Jedi. The order does not seem to be restrictive about people leaving the order of their own accord. And not all force users choose to deal with the sometimes restrictive nature of the order.  I would honestly assume someone who openly wants nothing  to do with the order or the council and no longer follows the code would no longer be a Jedi, not just a Non traditional Jedi. They would not of course be sith either unless they chose to go that route. Just a general Force adept


With that all said, and a truely depressing amount of drafts it took, there is my opinion for the moment.

[Iaera]

While I have enjoyed debating Jedi since way too long ago, I admit there are those who know more than I on the matter. Iaera, I feel you are one of those. So I'm bringing this to you as a question: How do you see that we react to this? When something -is- presented as rigid, but that we wish to RP apart from? When the game establishes something, there will be those who wish to follow it. (Another second thought example: the fact that Satele Shan is the Grand Master. There are some who like to RP that she isn't)

Reworded: How do you see a Jedi RP one thing as true, meeting another Jedi who's RPing that it is not true, interacting? I ask because this is an issue that ripples beyond Jedi players, but -affects- them the most.

That's a good question, and I think it speaks to the larger issue of "how do you handle IC discrepancies?" The issue of timeline, for example. Some people (such as myself) prefer to play the current year as 10 ATC (Cold War), while others prefer 12 ATC (Full-blown war). In my experience, however, it rarely becomes a huge issue.

If someone were to come up to Iaera and loudly proclaim that Master Satele Shan is not Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, however, I think Iaera would treat this individual as a crazy person. Something similar happened a few months, late one night in the NS cantina. A low-level Jedi walked in and a conversation was struck up. This Jedi's views came off as increasingly crazy as the conversation wore on, and I could no longer suspend disbelief that this person could have ever attained the rank of Jedi Master in the Order, as he claimed to. I'm a very IC-driven RPer and try to avoid OOC when I can, so I felt my only real option was for Iaera to dismiss this person as a serious Jedi and treat him with a hefty grain of salt. He eventually left in a huff when Iaera didn't seem interested in helping him with his wacky plans, and the RP become more or less forgettable and, ultimately, a non-issue.

Now, that's a pretty extreme example - I've never met another Jedi character I've had to do that with, since at worst Iaera merely disagrees with the other character in a purely IC fashion, which is fine. But I think it's generally the approach to take. Don't make a big OOC fuss out of a discrepancy in RP style, smooth over it as best one can IC and 90% of the time it won't be an issue. The 10% of the time it does, then OOC discussion should take place to figure out what's-what.

Of course, the latter is a big part of the point of this thread. Here is exactly the place to hash out these Jedi continuity and credibility issues!  :)

As for the specific issue of relationships, I think it requires some care and discretion. I think a card-carrying Jedi ought to avoid loudly advertising their relationship, but if they want to maintain one discreetly, then that's fine. I should also think scrutiny would be heightened on padawans, whereas Knights and Masters would have a bit more wiggle room.

[Ghazan]

About Force Sight...

The Force Alignment was really only introduced with KOTOR2. I dont think that is Standard Miraluka training. I often refer a lot of things back to StarWars: Saga Edition books. Where sensing alignment was a skill one could train. You could feel who had no darkside points, who had 1+, DM's would allow you to feel who was tainted and full darkside. That training with a Miraluka's sight would give the desired effect, However in general this ability is open to everyone and is trained to Sentinels who duty it is to find darksiders. But I dont think its innate what Miraluka see alignment. I think that was a game mechanic to help you through Kotor2 if you couldnt tell who was what alignment, to guide you more dark/lightside.

Also in SagaEdition, One could perceive with a sense that was hindered. However it took some amount of concentration, often a standard action(the largest part of a 5 second round). The techniques of blocking and deflecting blaster bolts isnt as much sight as it is foresight. Innate glimpses into the future that guide your body where to place the blade. But thats a side thought. So with some amount of concentration, you can hear your surroundings if your ears are covered, smell, see, taste, ect if those senses were somehow cut off.

[Orell]

Ghazan:

Well, for one thing, uh, no. This isn't a matter of training, as much as you walking is "training". This is a natural (...well, as far as the Force goes, anyway) part of the species, and is absolutely innate. It was a major thematic element of KOTOR2, not just being a game mechanic that someone could go the entire game without encountering.

The rules I've been working by so far, when it comes to Force Sight, are:

* Can see through thin, non-living material for a small distance (like looking through a light fog).
* Can naturally see if a character is Light Side, Dark Side or Neutral, but not degrees or motives or such. Also can see if you're an unholy abomination with no Force presence, thank you Kavra...
* Cannot see colors, but, with effort and training, can identify them. Instead of seeing a red box as a red box, they see a box and know that the color is red. Makes it possible to do tasks and such ("CUT THE RED WIRE!"), but, in terms of looking at art or anything meant to be pretty? Its like looking at the DVD encoding for Lord of the Rings. This might seem like a bit of a cheat, and I only have Shaantil do this if its an important situation where she would have to know colors.

I'd like to point out something rather important: Dark Side does not mean Sith or Empire or wants to kick puppies. I imagine Miraluka see a lot of DS folk in, say, the halls of the Senate.

Now, you could make an argument for Force Sight only picking up alignment on Force users, and that's a conversation I wouldn't be against having. But, since this is TOR? An MMO-sequel to KOTOR 2, using a race that was introduced in KOTOR 2 and an ability that, AFAIK, was most notably explored in KOTOR 2? Lets make sure that whatever rules we decide on as a community? They follow the known functionality shown in KOTOR 2.

[Nascuyan]

According to most of the EU that I've read non-force sensitives tend to be more painted by their surface emotions than their "side" of the force spectrum.

[Sionn]

* Can naturally see if a character is Light Side, Dark Side or Neutral, but not degrees or motives or such. Also can see if you're an unholy abomination with no Force presence, thank you Kavra...

Saw that and just wanted to chime in and say that Kavra has a presence in the Force. She is more akin to a dark side nexus, meaning that she is unusually strong in the dark side. That is all. Now back to the talk about Jedi and the force. -fades away-

[Orell]

* Can naturally see if a character is Light Side, Dark Side or Neutral, but not degrees or motives or such. Also can see if you're an unholy abomination with no Force presence, thank you Kavra...

Saw that and just wanted to chime in and say that Kavra has a presence in the Force. She is more akin to a dark side nexus, meaning that she is unusually strong in the dark side. That is all. Now back to the talk about Jedi and the force. -fades away-

Fine, fine, forgive me for making a joke :P

[Ghazan]

Ghazan:

Well, for one thing, uh, no. This isn't a matter of training, as much as you walking is "training". This is a natural (...well, as far as the Force goes, anyway) part of the species, and is absolutely innate. It was a major thematic element of KOTOR2, not just being a game mechanic that someone could go the entire game without encountering.

The rules I've been working by so far, when it comes to Force Sight, are:

* Can see through thin, non-living material for a small distance (like looking through a light fog).
* Can naturally see if a character is Light Side, Dark Side or Neutral, but not degrees or motives or such. Also can see if you're an unholy abomination with no Force presence, thank you Kavra...
* Cannot see colors, but, with effort and training, can identify them. Instead of seeing a red box as a red box, they see a box and know that the color is red. Makes it possible to do tasks and such ("CUT THE RED WIRE!"), but, in terms of looking at art or anything meant to be pretty? Its like looking at the DVD encoding for Lord of the Rings. This might seem like a bit of a cheat, and I only have Shaantil do this if its an important situation where she would have to know colors.

I'd like to point out something rather important: Dark Side does not mean Sith or Empire or wants to kick puppies. I imagine Miraluka see a lot of DS folk in, say, the halls of the Senate.

Now, you could make an argument for Force Sight only picking up alignment on Force users, and that's a conversation I wouldn't be against having. But, since this is TOR? An MMO-sequel to KOTOR 2, using a race that was introduced in KOTOR 2 and an ability that, AFAIK, was most notably explored in KOTOR 2? Lets make sure that whatever rules we decide on as a community? They follow the known functionality shown in KOTOR 2.

In any Pen and Paper, Miraluka cant see alignment. Only in KOTOR2 is that true. Sensing Darkside however is well documented in Pen/Paper, games, and movies. As I said I assume we can come to terms that the training of sensing the darkside in a person which is often a building on/more sensitive version of sensing who is and isnt force sensitive. Add force sight of the miraluka, and you have what that Miraluka has in KOTOR2.

I am simply saying its slightly more documented that Miraluka's cant see alignment, then is.
 

[Alysanda]

I am simply saying its slightly more documented that Miraluka's cant see alignment, then is.

Except I have this button on my action bar that says Sense Force Alignment. I think Bioware's intentions are pretty clear, even though I disagree with their half-assed job at defining how Miraluka work.

When I realized what a problem it was, I found a thread on a TOR RP site and decided, based on that, what Alys does.

http://www.swtor-rp.com/forum/m/1639455/viewthread/1824450-regarding-miraluka-senses/page/1


Wait, what was this thread about again?

[Ghazan]

I am simply saying its slightly more documented that Miraluka's cant see alignment, then is.

Except I have this button on my action bar that says Sense Force Alignment. I think Bioware's intentions are pretty clear, even though I disagree with their half-assed job at defining how Miraluka work.

When I realized what a problem it was, I found a thread on a TOR RP site and decided, based on that, what Alys does.

http://www.swtor-rp.com/forum/m/1639455/viewthread/1824450-regarding-miraluka-senses/page/1


Wait, what was this thread about again?

Even though I disagree with it on a Lore level, I cant really fight that they do have the ability in game with the president of KOTOR2.  I never seen the social ability on my Miraluka. Just tested it out, (miraluka is only like lvl 14) so my point is invalid.

[Iaera]

That's some interesting material from Saga, Ghazan. I briefly played the Star Wars d20 game (the one contemporary with D&D 3rd Ed), but beyond that I'm unfamiliar with Saga. It sounds like they 'get' the Force a lot better than BioWare does. I'm tempted to go pick up a copy of a Saga book or two.