The Force

[Iaera]

So, I think I tried to talk about this awhile back, but I sort of got side-tracked into talking about divisions in Jedi philosophy instead.

Something which is a bit of a pet peeve of mine is... The Force. I know, rite? I suspect I'm very much holding a minority opinion on this one, but I wanted to see what people think. The issue I take can probably be divided into two components: Overuse and over-the-top use of the Force in RP; and treating the Force like a super-power or the raw power of a mage or sorcerer.

The first problem is probably merely a symptom of the second, but I do want to clarify what I mean by it. In the movies, how is the Force used? To cite the most salient examples: (references provided for examples which only show up or are explicitly shown once or twice)

• To stagger, push, or imbalance an opponent in combat
• To fling, manipulate, or summon (to hand) objects in combat
• To jump higher, run faster (TPM), and generally push the envelope on physical tasks
• To see glimpses of possible long-term futures, usually vague and prophetic
• To react to the immediate future before it happens (TPM)
• Similarly to the above to, to have a vague, or rarely specific, "sixth sense" or "Spidey sense" regarding danger (AotC especially)
• To muddle or distract those with poor mental discipline, which often makes them repeat stuff to you verbatim, curiously!
• To lift, manipulate, or summon objects, often large, outside of the context of combat
• To hold one's breath in a hostile environment, see pushing the envelope above (TPM)
• To constrict a target, generally the throat, and generally outside the context of combat
• To project (and in some cases, deflect or absorb) destructive lightning-like energy
• To sense and perceive one's surroundings, even if reason suggests you'd be blind (AotC, ANH)
• To sense the presence of life, especially individuals one is familiar with (ANH, RotJ)
• To sense the surface thoughts, and on occasion, deeper emotions of those nearby
• A limited ability to project and sense telepathic messages of a simplistic nature, related to above (ESB)
• To sense the occurrence of large-scale events of significant importance (RotS, ANH)
• To manifest as a "ghost" after death and/or speak with the still-living
• To abandon conscious effort and instead act only on serendipitous instinct (ANH)

I bolded the last bit because I think it's particularly important, but more on that later! It's possible I might have missed a few interesting tidbits, but by and large I think that's everything of consequence that happens with the Force over the course of the movies. It's a fairly sizeable list, but I'm of the opinion that if it isn't explicitly covered above or at least strictly implied (if you can constrict someone by the throat, you could also probably constrict someone by the ankle, if you wanted to. But it doesn't necessarily follow that you could constrict someone's spleen, for example), it's probably pushing the concept of the Force a little too far. This is what I mean by overuse or over-the-top use of the Force -- I don't think treating it as magic with no theoretical limits or constraints is a good philosophy, even if that is what my character believes IC.

Which segues to the main thrust here, as I think the above tendency tends to spring from treating the Force like it's a "magic power" or something the X-Men have and go to Xavier's school to learn how to use. And I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Force is all about. Part of this perception is BioWare's fault, I think, as both Knights of the Old Republic and many of SWTOR's mechanics are skewed toward this interpretation (witness the Sage/Sorcerer class, for example, which casually uses the Force as its entire arsenal, and costing "mana" to do so).

ANH, ESB, and to a lesser extent the other four films, however, go to great pains to describe the Force as mystical. It takes inspiration from Eastern religion, philosophy, and mythology -- blind monks who can deliver an ass-beating to five grizzled mercenaries; wise gurus atop hidden mountains who will only teach the worthy; pacifism and asceticism in a hostile and material world. It is a thoroughly Zen thing. While obviously some people have some natural affinity for it (such as Anakin in TPM), by and large it is a discipline which is learned through rigorous study and philosophical understanding, not a super-power whose raging energies must be harnessed.

In D&D terms, someone who is skilled with the Force is a Monk, not a Sorcerer. Using the Force is about transcending the concept of what is physical and approaching the world with a more spiritual understanding. In the thought I've given to the subject, it strikes me that a Jedi probably considers the likes of holodramas and gourmet food as painfully mundane and pedestrian -- fleeting, physical niceties that are as strange, petty, and pointless to the Jedi way of life as the details of high school drama are to adults in our own lives.

I think there is an awful lot of RP potential in that, actually, and it's something I want to try to explore more, but I'm digressing. I bolded a line in the list above because I think it epitomises what the Force is all about. I think that line is the quintessential Force power. The Force is about being Zen. Being in balance with the universe around you, and acting in complete harmony with it. In so doing, you're "tapped in" to the universe's super secret club, and get all the hot tips before everybody else, so to speak -- that's the origin of the "power" that a Jedi or Sith visibly manifests. The deeper your philosophical commitment to the counter-intuitive ideology of the Force ("But with the blast shield down, how am I supposed to see anything?!" "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them."), the more "powerful" you become.

(footnotes)
TPM: The Phantom Menace
AotC: Attack of the Clones
RotS: Revenge of the Sith
ANH: A New Hope
ESB: The Empire Strikes Back
RotJ: Return of the Jedi

I have placed footnotes in a post on the Internet about Star Wars. Yes I am that big of a nerd. 

[Nascuyan]

Thank you Iaera. Thank you so much...

[Iaera]

Well I'm glad someone liked it! 

[Sciran]

This is an amazing start to what I hope will be a contributory thread. I have to say, this is exactly how I view the Force myself - something much slighter than a lot of the higher-powered players prefer.

I'd like to contribute two things:

First, to contradict that I don't believe it's entirely BioWare's fault for the view of the Force as a "Mana Ability" of sorts. While your notation of KotR and TOR are correct, there have been many other instances of this portrayal as well. The Force Unleashed games I think contributed to that the most largely, I feel, but even some scenes of the movies can give some of that feeling (Palpatine frying Mace Windu screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!" or something similar comes to mind). And, of course, the EU books are known for doing... Well... Everything.
I don't agree with it, but I can understand where some folks have come away with the thought.

Second, I also would like to add that I personally view there to be a difference between a given persons 'Connection' with the Force, for lack of a better term, and their 'Ability' with the Force. We've all seen some Force users who use some abilities with the Force that others cannot, and we've seen some who've been claimed as more powerful than others ("The Force is strong with this one"). To me, 'Connection' would describe 'how often' and 'Ability' would give a feeling of 'how strong'.
For example, Sciran is a character that I played with a -great- amount of Ability with the Force: he was able to make pinpoint Force Pushes/Pulls to trip combatants or throw punches without fists, or combine Force Speed with the Force Precognition ('Spider Sense') to allow him to compete in combat with hand-to-hand where otherwise he could not, or even change directions mid Force Leap. However, his 'Connection' with the Force was minimal: if he did -anything- with the Force more than a time or two in a given encounter, it strained him and give him headaches - prolonged usage of the Force strained him enough to hospitalize him.
I figure there's an angle to both that's part training and part natural affinity, but there's too much variation in the Jedi/Sith we see (or even between Jedi/Sith concepts themselves) for me to think it's a baseline "You have the Force or you do not" and that's it. I think it also makes for interestingly fresh characters.

And I'm kinda babbling a bit. This thought is by no means firmly defined, and I'm happy to discuss/refine it further if you'd like Iaera - either here or in game/chat. Just thought I'd chip in a little, because the Force is my favorite part of this world, and Jedi by extension my favorite character concept. I have a lightsaber. I'm a nerd.

[Iaera]

I won't dispute that natural affinity plays a role. One guy can spend sixty years of his life just learning how to lift a rock, only for some rookie to come in, meditate for five minutes, and move the rock across the yard and then ask what the next lesson is. Where your character falls on that spectrum is certainly a valid and interesting consideration! Most "non-Force-sensitive" characters would probably be the sixty-years-guy.

However, using the Force shouldn't be a matter of how much it kicks your character's ass to do so (unless you're doing some funky Dark Side thing, which is a different discussion, but not one I'm necessarily opposed to -- self-destruction is a key theme of the Dark Side). It might be mentally exhausting for a poorly-trained, inexperienced, or "low-power" individual, but only indirectly -- it takes work, mental work, to concentrate and focus, especially under stress (such as combat). Nothing about the "power" itself is going to hurt you, because it isn't a power as we like to think of it.

I should have put this in my original post, but here will have to suffice - the Force, as I see it, is essentially the Star Wars interpretation of chi or qi. It's more philosophy than magic; Star Wars just posits within its own internal universe that deep understanding of that philosophy can actually provide tangible, supernatural-seeming abilities. So either you understand that philosophy and its workings, or you don't (again, taking into account the concession of natural affinity, above). This is the whole point Yoda is driving at with his famous line: You can't try, because there's no middle ground. You have to be in a frame of mind that isn't thinking "Oh well I can move a small rock, sometimes, but not a whole X-Wing, because I'm not that strong/powerful/have that much mana!" You can't be half on-board like that; if you are, then you're in the Do Not category of Do or Do Not.

[Semah]

Apologies in advance for the screed. Still waking up, but really needed to reply.

I haven't read most of the other thread, but I think that in it, Sciran implied the major question here, the one we really need to answer (as opposed to just discuss): How can players who embrace the EU and its higher-powered setting have rewarding RP with people who do not? Obviously the answer is some variant of "talk OOC first" but that's a given. What would be entailed, and how can we bridge the gap so that both sides can enjoy themselves? Mentioning certain non-unique powers from the EU in OOC can spawn derision. That's bad.

In terms of debate, there are two questions here: what do we feel is the nature of the force, and what power-levels do we feel are reasonable in our RP? But those pale in comparison to the bigger issue.

I love the way you've described the force, and largely feel the same way. However, your post was from a largely jedi perspective. We know that the force reacts to emotion and facilitates empathy as well. We know that the force acts to manipulate (for lack of a better word) destiny to bring certain people together. I feel it's a lot more than just qi. What do I mean by that -- well, that will take more thought. :-) But I will ask this: How do you feel about Sith? Is hatefearangerjealousy necessary to use (say) canonical force-lightning? Because the movies don't leave a lot of room to maneuver in there, and some of us want to explore the possibilities of the broader setting.

[Iaera]

True; I should have clarified that I wasn't really delving into things like the Dark Side and how Sith philosophy interacts with the Force and such.

I certainly agree with you that there's an empathy component; that can be seen in the way others' emotions are frequently read. "I sense much fear in you, Skywalker!"

I do think that Sith philosophy/the Dark Side allows for a degree of substitution; raw emotion supplants true understanding. But there is still a strong philosophical discipline component -- being self-aware of one's emotional impulses and their use seems to yield a more "powerful" Sith than simply surrendering to blind emotional turmoil.

Lightning in particular is interesting in that it's unusual relative to the various other demonstrated abilities, and anything I say on it is going to be speculative rather than observational, since the lightning is never really explained in the movies. The best line is in AotC, where Dooku says "As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond your own," in reference to his use of lightning. Yet I don't think I would take that to mean that lightning is a technique Jedi generally delve into -- Yoda is the only one who demonstrates anything relating to lightning (not including deflecting it into one's lightsaber), and that's merely an absorption and reflection of it.

I'm inclined to approach it, once again, with Eastern mythological themes. "Dark Evil Lord, I shall defeat you with my kung fu!" "Not so fast, grasshopper! I have learned the evil secret of the mystical Dragon Death, and now you will taste its power!" [insert cheesy kung fu movie scene]

So in that context, I see it as a somewhat secretive, obfuscated Sith technique, requiring a high degree of discipline and study to master.

edit ~

And I should note that that's how Iaera tends to respond to it IC. Obviously it's utterly ubiquitous in, say, PvP, but in RP, use of lightning is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser for Iaera. A bit of a "Shit just got real," moment. It's one of the reasons she loathes Karmic!  ()

[Karmic]

((Oh so she loathes Karmic but not Tae; who uses lightening frivorously for anything at all! HA I see how you is ;).  For the record, she only wanted to stun Iaera....lol - but it was a situation in which shit just got real...))

As to the discussion, um...only having lore from the movies and the video game; I see all of your points but don't have much myself to add.  Your points about the movies I think are good ones; but the reality in the game mechanics is that the force is being used more overtly. I mean..Sith are Flying in my storyline =D.

So for RPers like me, whos knowledge of the "canon" does not extend to the EU - we really can only go on the mythical movie stuff and the overt-power-usage of the video game world we find ourselves in.  This is why I always hope for understandning and OOC talk if myself, or anyone, are using abilities someone else might question or be uncomfortable with.

And as someone who plays a character with a oober-super-power ability with the force (who is also in many ways handicapped in her force-abilities and force-use; the way Karmic harnasses the force I specifically made a type of backasswards way for her - not because I was trying to Mary Sue it but because I'm not a lore-nerd with this and wanted to do somemthing more interesting than what I'd seen in the movies..and feared stepping on too much lore if I tried to play it too stricctly), I hesitate to join into a more lore-centric discussion with people who understand how all this works much better than I do    I do know that I've never used, or even brought out her "oober ability" without getting people's OOC opinions and permissions on it first.  Its not somethign I ever just sling around; and have made my character specficially avoidant of using it to begin with; because she fears her loss of control.

And when I think of Chi; you speak of balance - but it would seem that "balance" has little to do with it when you're considering Dark Vs. Light side application.  To me, if harnassing or power in the force was dependent on "balance" then the extreme Dark or the extreme Light would be weaker in its use? And that's just not the case?

As I always remember when I think of Chi - that Chi is also harnassed (case studies and storytelling lore wise lol) for direct and very physical attacks.

But I do agree with you - and try to RP myself - that harnassing the force for personal ability use - wether that's making a glass move or attacking someone with lightening or...flying... takes high degrees of discipline, study, and self-control in order to manifest.  And in Fact ICily, Karmic is of the opinion that everyone has some force-sensitivity (even if they just call it their luck, or instincts, or that funny feeling they get when something is about to happen..etc.) and that if they would just train and study, anyone could learn how to wield the force.  As you said, some may take years to move the rock, some are more innately force-sensitive than others; but that they CAN wield it if they only have the instruction, patience, and self-disipline to learn.

However, I am enjoying everyone else's discussion of the finer points so please carry on! Don't mind the ramblings as I work my way through the discussion ;).

How can players who embrace the EU and its higher-powered setting have rewarding RP with people who do not? Obviously the answer is some variant of "talk OOC first" but that's a given. What would be entailed, and how can we bridge the gap so that both sides can enjoy themselves? Mentioning certain non-unique powers from the EU in OOC can spawn derision. That's bad.

And Semah as you pointed out, OOC here is key.  I know that "both sides" can enjoy themselves as long as the "higher powered setting" people don't just swing it around for the purposes of "being superior."  I know I've RPed with people much more powerful, and much less powerful, than Karmic.  And honestly it rarely comes up ulness there's going to be a fight; at least - I don't find it necessary to worry/fret/argue/question what anyone's character concept involves - unless the utilization of that power (whatever it might be) is going to effect my character.  And then its a matter of ooc discussion and working things out.  Otherwise, I don't care what someone is RPing around me or coming up to me telling me their character does.  I'm ok with just rolling with it, until they start to try and use it ON Karmic lol.

And always remember, just because you  might be aware they are "EU" force power options, or that something you want to do is in the EU - not everyone you're RPing with has any notion that they exist; or have existed in another form.  I only found out a few months ago that Karmic's "oober ability" actually existed in Lore in another - actually very signicant - lore figure (EU).  I had no idea; didn't think I was really being original or anything but had no idea it was actually already covered and "possible" so to speak.

As you said, whipping out certain powers or displaying certain abilities might be greatly frowned upon (OOC), but there's no way to know that without talking.

I hope that didn't hijack that too much...

[livia]

But there is still a strong philosophical discipline component -- being self-aware of one's emotional impulses and their use seems to yield a more "powerful" Sith than simply surrendering to blind emotional turmoil.

To my mind, this is a really important point about the sith. Letting your emotions rule you may make you strong, but you won't necessarily be able to do much with it except lash out blindly as you'll have very little control or focus; however,  learning how to harness and control your emotions and use them to your advantage is the key to becoming truly powerful. Very much like the jedi, it's about self-discipline - they just take it in a different direction - harnessing the power of emotion rather than denying and dismissing it. Semah likes to call the 'young' (i.e. relatively untrained) sith "little piñatas full of hate" (which is a turn of phrase that I think is particularly apt) and it's not until they can get beyond that that they can even really start to be good at sithing.

[Aylaa]

Semah likes to call the 'young' (i.e. relatively untrained) sith "little piñatas full of hate"

<3 this is an amazing phase. Also, Aylaa agrees 100%. She laments about Sith with "More power than sense" And tends to refer to them as children.

I do think that Sith philosophy/the Dark Side allows for a degree of substitution; raw emotion supplants true understanding.

I dunno. I think if you asked a Sith, they would say that acceptance of raw emotion is the first step on the path. A Sith would say to a Jedi that their extreme denial supplants true understanding.

But there is still a strong philosophical discipline component -- being self-aware of one's emotional impulses and their use seems to yield a more "powerful" Sith than simply surrendering to blind emotional turmoil.

Very much like the jedi, it's about self-discipline - they just take it in a different direction - harnessing the power of emotion rather than denying and dismissing it.

Indeed. I think the more powerful, and more dangerous, Sith have come to the realization that emotions are weapons to be forged and honed then properly cared for and respected. Once a Sith sees past the easy (and tempting), uncoordinated HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE, shit gets real.

This has always been Aylaa's take on it. It's even borne out in canon by Palpatine - you don't get to do what he did by being unrestrained and by having no control.

But that said, an idiot with a weapon can kill people - even masters of a given weapon - but he's still an idiot. A master is more likely to kill precisely, and probably has a damn good shot at offing the idiot before they can take a crack at them.

and I'm babbling :flee:

[recoveringgeek]

I suspect I'm very much holding a minority opinion on this one, but I wanted to see what people think.

I don't know whether you're in the minority or not, but I think the limited response to this thread so far justifies your way of thinking, and let's you know you're not alone. I wanted to reply early on, but anytime I considered my reply, it came across as too preachy, essentially devolving into "You're not playing it right."

Like so many other things we do here Iaera, I think the only advice I can give, because it is my personal manta, is to ignore the characterizations, uses of the Force, or misuse of the Force so long as it doesn't affect you personally. There are Force-users on the Begeren Colony server that are played in a manner that is immersion breaking for me. However, up and until the point those characters Force Slam me in the face, I just turn off that part of my brain. You can extend this argument to many different character types. Super spies. Cybernetically-enhanced slicers. Zombie detectives!? (*pokes Aiden with much love*)

I don't know that you can, or even should try to change other players viewpoints, because ultimately it is their game too, and we all have to share the nebulous gray zone of canon, role-play, and fun. I think as we continue to build the bonds of our community, and impress upon everyone the importance of out-of-character permission and communiction, we can hopefully let the other stuff slide off our backs.

This isn't me discouraging this thread. I'd love to read everyone's thoughts, but I wanted to address Iaera's specific question about whether we can apply, or even acknowledge, a blanket standard of power for Force users.

[Semah]

Since Livia made my reply to the philosophy bit for me... ;-)

There are Force-users on the Begeren Colony server that are played in a manner that is immersion breaking for me.

As someone new to the community, and RPing in general, it's hard to know how to interpret this. Do you mean specific powers? Power _levels_? Casual use of powers? etc. I'm open to discussing this privately if you prefer. I'd just rather not risk breaking immersion for anyone. :-(

[recoveringgeek]

I'm open to discussing this privately if you prefer.

Thanks for the reply Semah, but I won't be discussing it publically or privately with anyone. In answer to your question, it could be any or all three of things. You needn't worry about breaking my immersion, after all, I have a responsibility to adjust my tolerance for other player's role-play styles on a public server. I just wanted to point out that even if we reduce the size of the role-play community to those players who post here on this forum, or lurk without posting, we could still be talking about a player pool of a hundred or more. It would be impossible to try and determine a level of uniformity regarding everyone's understanding and play style when it comes to an ambiguous plot device such as the Force.

[Iaera]

Like so many other things we do here Iaera, I think the only advice I can give, because it is my personal manta, is to ignore the characterizations, uses of the Force, or misuse of the Force so long as it doesn't affect you personally. There are Force-users on the Begeren Colony server that are played in a manner that is immersion breaking for me. However, up and until the point those characters Force Slam me in the face, I just turn off that part of my brain. You can extend this argument to many different character types. Super spies. Cybernetically-enhanced slicers. Zombie detectives!? (*pokes Aiden with much love*)

Oh I agree! I'm certainly not in the business of trampling over anyone's RP. If Bob the Superjedi wants to yank Star Destroyers out of orbit with his mind, I'm not going to stand in his way and tell him he can't do that -- more power to him! On the other hand, I'm probably not going to pay a whole lot of attention to him, either. That's not to say I'm going to completely ignore anyone who ever does anything I don't like, mind, I'm just unlikely to actively try to delve into that circle of the RP community.

My goal here is to see what people think and consider it, and maybe get other people to consider how they RP the Force themselves!